[Businessmtg] Show Of Hands

Wed Sep 21 00:52:03 PDT 2016

Laura,

I'm not sure where this came from. Seriously. While I have had differences
of opinion and concerns about how things are handled, I have tried to be
very careful to keep my comments on the principles, not on the
personalities. Yeah, I know it feels personal.  My wife with 34 years of
sobriety, still takes it personal when I tell her that her new puppy pooped
in the living room. :-)

My sole goal here is to see that ASP business is handled in a manner that
follows the 12 Traditions & 12 Concepts, ASP Founding Principles, ASP Group
Consciences, ASP guidelines and yes, ASP small-t traditions. Those small-t
traditions are very real and important to ASP, whether well codified and
written down somewhere or not.  

Every organization, including every Al-Anon group has small-t traditions
that are very important to the group. They are the culture of the meeting.
Group problems are frequently caused by someone "changing" the meeting in
some way that changes for threatens to change the culture of the meeting.
Intentionally or unintentionally doesn't matter. If someone changes the way
a group does things, it upsets other members. 

But, here at ASP we've worked hard to avoid the problems that come with
unwritten small-t traditions by putting most things on our web site. Sadly,
it's not perfect and is missing a few things here and there. Also, some
things are scattered around so not everything is where you might think you'd
find it, so it's a good idea for anyone interested in how ASP works or
service at ASP to make a study of the entire web site. This is especially
true for the officers. 

I've done a ton of service over decades of Al-Anon and more than once I've
gotten myself into hot water with the group, District, Area. Sometimes, I
was a large part of the problem just like I was a part of the problem with
the alcoholic. In later years, I still found myself in hot water now and
then, but that was often because some folks use Al-Anon service as a place
to practice their disease in the name of recovery. Yeah, I actually said
that out loud. Sad, but way too true.  

In any case, all of those situations served as "opportunities for growth".
They really suck when I'm in the midst of them. I spent untold hours working
with WSO, my Regional Trustee, other Trustees & Delegates as well as my
sponsor/service sponsors (a Trustee and a Delegate) to help me keep my
actions in line with Al-Anon principles. I really learned a lot about asking
for help, following the suggestions of others, and keeping my focus on those
Al-Anon principles instead of doing what I wanted to do. 

Hugs,
Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: Businessmtg
[mailto:businessmtg-bounces+steve=serenitysys.com at asp-afg.org] On Behalf Of
Laura M
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 2:31 PM
To: Steve - SC
Cc: ASP Business
Subject: Re: [Businessmtg] Show Of Hands

If the rest of the business meeting is of Steve's opinion that I am doing a
poor job, I will gladly step down immediately.

Given that I have received no information from anyone on the steering
committee about how these business meetings run...and I am running them as I
have seen the business meetings run here before.

Since obviously there are major objections to how I am doing my job, I will
offer my resignation because that seems to be the only way Steve will be
satisfied.

Laura

On Tuesday, September 20, 2016, Steve Rankin <steve at serenitysys.com> wrote:

> I agree with Jerry's assessment of "when" to have a show of hands.
>
> The problem is that our current KBDM process does not separate the 
> FACT/INFORMATION phase of the meeting from the OPINION/DELIBERATION phase.
> This is clearly seen in the current meeting where the vast majority of 
> posts have been short quips of opinion, and very little fact & 
> information.
>
> We need to separate these phases of the meeting before moving on to 
> discussing a show of hands type of thing.
>
> Hugs,
> Steve
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Businessmtg
> [mailto:businessmtg-bounces+steve <javascript:;>= 
> serenitysys.com at asp-afg.org <javascript:;>] On Behalf Of Gerald Hunter
> Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 2:28 PM
> To: Steve - SC
> Cc: ASP Business
> Subject: Re: [Businessmtg] Show Of Hands
>
> Hmmmm
>
> KBDM.
> A general topic discussion is raised from which a consensus on a 
> defined topic is "detected". A motion is then written which fits that 
> general agreement. Full research and information seeking takes place 
> regarding the motion. Fully informed participants then discuss the 
> motion until all input is heard. Then a vote is taken with a goal of 100%
agreement.
>
> My question is this: at what point is this "show of hands" taken?
>
> I suggest the only spot would be before the motion is written. [As in 
> "How many think we should write a motion on this subject?" Anything 
> after that equates to a vote on the topic without full discussion no 
> matter what it's called.
>
> I'm in favor of more clarity on what we're being asked to raise our 
> hands to.
>
> Jerry
> - from the Hopper woods
> -
>
>
> Laura M <lauram at asp-afg.org <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >Hi Everyone,
> >
> >I wanted to give a little background of why this item is on the agenda.
> >
> >ASP works by KBDM (Knowledge Based Decision Making). We don't use 
> >Roberts Rules unless absolutely a last ditch, as ASP wants to bring 
> >people to consensus before taking a vote on anything.
> >
> >In a face to face meeting, the chairperson would be able to gauge 
> >where people are by looking at nodding heads, as well as listening to 
> >the
> shares.
> >
> >The problem at ASP is that the chairperson doesn't have the ability 
> >to gauge where people are unless they speak up.
> >
> >Here is an example:
> >An issue comes up in the business meeting and you are thinking that 
> >it is not a good idea and you share that position. You read all the 
> >shares, and realize that people have really good points, and change 
> >your mind, and wait for the vote.
> >
> >At this point, the chairperson has no indication that you have 
> >switched your viewpoint, and would still consider you as a person who 
> >is not in favor.
> >
> >Another example:
> >You really don't have an opinion on an issue, and wait to hear the sides.
> >You read everything and make up your mind, but don't share it with 
> >the group.
> >
> >At this point the chairperson has no indication of where you stand on 
> >the issue.
> >
> >What this all boils down to is that the chairperson needs a mechanism 
> >to determine how close the business meeting is to consensus on an 
> >issue. Since we can't do a physical show of hands, I am suggesting 
> >that we require a straw poll (or more than one) to determine if 
> >consensus has been reached *before *we entertain any motions that get
voted on.
> >
> >This will protect the voices of the minority, as well as ensure that 
> >everyone is heard.
> >
> >Thanks for letting me bring this before the business meeting.
> >
> >Laura M
> >Secretary
> >_______________________________________________
> >The ASP Instruction page is
> >http://asp-afg.org/members/asp-instructions/
> >
> >The ASP web site for ASP members is http://www.asp-afg.org/Members/
> >
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> >
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>
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>
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>
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