[Businessmtg] Show Of Hands

Wed Sep 21 09:51:48 PDT 2016

Thank you Apryl!

The Chairperson requires a mechanism to ascertain the direction of the meeting. Sometimes the comments in the meeting seem to be all in favour or the comments are off topic,  it is very hard to keep them in any semblance of order. When it appears that there is a consensus   , then simplest way for the Chair to check the temperature of the meeting is to request a show of hands. However the Chair chooses to do that should be left up to the Chairperson. We elect officers and we have to trust that they will fulfill their job. 

The following is from today's meeting on Concept Six and is very fitting for this discussion.

At each level of our service structure, we try to treat our employees and volunteers as we would like to be treated by providing clear guidelines and not nit-picking or over managing each minute detail. One of the important principles of good management, whether of a large corporation such as Al-Anon Family Group Headquarters, Inc., a small business or our families, is linking the responsibility of the job with the authority needed to do it. Responsibility without power is both ineffective and unhealthy. Power without accountability is an invitation to dominance. 

Hugs

Sandie

Sent from my iPad

> On Sep 21, 2016, at 11:16 AM, Laura M <lauram at asp-afg.org> wrote:
> 
> Great idea, Apryl.
> 
> As the meeting chair, I want the option to do a show of hands poll so that
> I may determine if a consensus has been made so that we may move onto the
> next phase of any issue, which is to entertain a motion on the business at
> hand.
> 
> Having this formally approved by the business meeting will mean that this
> method of getting a feel for what is going on in the meeting is sanctioned
> by the business meeting, and will be written into our business meeting
> process.
> 
> It is analogous to doing a show of hands in a F2F meeting.
> 
> As far as the details, it can be open/closed or have write-ins or not. The
> show of hands would occur during the discussion phase of the point in
> question and would not constitute a vote on anything.
> 
> Laura
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 11:07 AM, Apryl Schneider <aprylkae at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> It might be particularly helpful for the rest of the meeting and
>> especially those among us who perhaps have not spent decades serving at
>> area and other higher levels of WSO or their face to face meetings, if
>> Steve, Sandie, Laura, and Jerry would each write a CONCISE, fact based,
>> explanation of their position for or against a show of hands.
>> 
>> Here's the issue right now: we are seeing, intentional of not, that the BM
>> has devolved into apparent personal attacks, hurt feelings, and frankly,
>> drama. This does not do anyone's recovery any good and while we are each
>> responsible for our own feelings and recovery, it remains necessary for us
>> each to consider the others in the room. In other words, please rewrite
>> your positions in as few words as possible without attacking how things
>> have been done and by whom, which should then give the rest of the meeting
>> the opportunity to focus on the agenda item to hand rather than the vaguely
>> veiled insults and one-upsman-ship that, in MY humble opinion, seems to
>> have been bandied about and taken over the meeting.
>> 
>> Apryl
>> 
>>>> On Sep 21, 2016, at 12:52 AM, Steve Rankin <steve at serenitysys.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Sandie,
>>> 
>>> I've also been to Assemblies in many Areas. Some issues were decided
>> quickly
>>> by a show of hands. Some issues were decided by a formal vote with GR's
>>> standing for/against/abstain on the issue. And some issues were decided
>> by
>>> secret ballot. Elections were always by secret ballot. Secret balloting
>> is
>>> done to protect the identity of who voted for what/whom. Once the ballots
>>> are in, the tally is never a secret.
>>> 
>>> However, in every case the results of every "show of
>>> hands"/vote/ballot/secret ballot was known to everyone present.
>>> 
>>> The Chair has said that only she and the Webmaster will be privy to the
>>> results (tally) of a "show of hands" poll. I have a real problem with
>> that
>>> kind of secrecy.
>>> 
>>> Another point that bothers me with the Agenda Item "Requiring a show of
>>> hands poll before a motion is accepted in the business meeting (voting
>>> required)".
>>> 
>>> For 20 years we have tried to keep the guidelines and procedures as
>> simple
>>> as possible. OK, so some of them aren't so simple - that's typical in
>>> Al-Anon. We've also tried to allow a degree of flexibility in how most
>>> things are done. While we definitely have procedures and policies in
>> place
>>> and we expect our trusted servants to abide by them, we've never found it
>>> necessary to use language like "must" or "required". After all, if the
>>> trusted servant is truly trusted we don't need to use that kind of
>> language.
>>> Likewise, if the trusted servant is truly interested in serving, then
>> they
>>> will strive to follow our directions as we have written them, without
>>> alterations.
>>> 
>>> Note also how the Chair's suggestion not only requires a poll before a
>>> motion is accepted, the members of the Business Meeting are REQUIRED to
>> vote
>>> in the poll. When did we start requiring members to vote? And if we are
>>> going to require them to vote, what is the penalty for not voting? What
>>> comes to mind is either outing them for not voting or banning them from
>>> voting on the motion, or maybe even banning them from the next meeting?
>>> Yeah, I'm sort of joking, but only sort of. If you are going to require
>> that
>>> members do something, then there must be some kind of consequences for
>>> non-compliance. Of course, the Concept 12 forbids punitive action so I'm
>> at
>>> a loss about how to interpret this.
>>> 
>>> Even the Steps are "suggested", not required.
>>> 
>>> Hugs,
>>> Steve
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Businessmtg
>>> [mailto:businessmtg-bounces+steve=serenitysys.com at asp-afg.org] On
>> Behalf Of
>>> List Administrator
>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 7:13 PM
>>> To: Steve - SC
>>> Cc: ASP Business
>>> Subject: Re: [Businessmtg] Show Of Hands
>>> 
>>> Secret polls are held all of the time in Al-Anon. I doubt that I have
>> ever
>>> been to a election in Al-Anon where balloting was not done secretly. In
>>> every Assembly  I have attended in three different areas all balloting
>> was
>>> done secretly.
>>> 
>>> Hugs
>>> Sandie
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>> 
>>>> On Sep 20, 2016, at 8:56 PM, Steve Rankin <steve at serenitysys.com>
>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hi folks,
>>>> 
>>>> Some thoughts on the show of hands issue, specifically.
>>>> 
>>>> I'll describe the way I did it for 10 years.
>>>> 
>>>> 1. We know who is in the Business Meeting. We send out a list of
>>>> everyone in the BM at the start of the meeting, so making a list of
>>>> who's here is a done deal.
>>>> 
>>>> 2. As members of the BM share on the issue, I'd have at least a clue
>>>> about how they felt on the issue. Put a "+" next to the name of
>>>> someone for and issue, a "-" next to the name of someone against the
>>>> issue.  If/when someone changes their tune, I change the mark next to
>>> their name.
>>>> 
>>>> 3. Anyone that hasn't shared during the meeting is obvious because
>>>> there is no mark next to their name.
>>>> 
>>>> 4. Ask for members that have not spoken, or who have changed their
>>>> minds on the issue to speak up. So simple and so efficient. No need to
>>>> craft the wording of a poll, no need to post a poll on the website, no
>>>> need to put the meeting on hold while members go to the poll, no need to
>>> tally, etc.
>>>> 
>>>> 5. What if someone doesn't speak up, or changes their mind later?
>>>> Obviously, I have no clue what the silent folks are thinking, but
>>>> usually I can tell if there's a swing in thinking when someone bring up
>> a
>>> new facet to the issue.
>>>> Frankly, this is not a problem IF the consensus building is done well.
>>>> See, an Al-Anon consensus is usually unanimous or very nearly so. If
>>>> we haven't reached that SUBSTANTIAL UNANIMITY, then we aren't done
>>>> with the consensus building.
>>>> 
>>>> 6. As the meeting went on, I'd also write notes about the suggestions.
>>>> As I started to think we were getting close to a consensus, I'd
>>>> assemble those notes into a list of points that needed to be part of a
>>>> motion that represented the consensus.
>>>> 
>>>> 7. If I think we have reached a consensus on Part A of an issue, but
>>>> not Part B, then I'd post a note saying I think we have a consensus on
>>>> Part A, so let's just talk about Part B. Maybe A & B can be separated,
>>>> but I'm loath to do that as sometimes we discover something during the
>>>> discussion of Part B that changes what we thought about Part A.
>>>> 
>>>> 8. Now, when we get to the point where I think we have a consensus on
>>>> the issue, I post a message that lists ALL of the points that are part
>>>> of the consensus, and ask for a motion that covers ALL of those
>>>> points. If the motion leaves out any points, or is somehow contrary to
>>>> what I believe is the consensus, then that motion is null and void and I
>>> ask for a new motion.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 9. Then we create the poll and vote.
>>>> 
>>>> 10. During the entire discussion and deliberation, as the Chair it is
>>>> important I remain as neutral as possible. My job as the Chair is to
>>>> guide the group to a consensus that represents the group. It is not my
>>>> job to influence the group to take a preferred course of action.
>>>> 
>>>> So, that's the way I did it. Frankly, I think it worked quite well and
>>>> I don't see any good reason to formalize polling the members. For one
>>>> thing, it creates a situation where meaningful discussions can easily
>>>> be short-circuited in favor of "efficiency" - or to further an agenda.
>>>> Also, I've heard way too much side talk in the recent months about how
>>>> such'n'such is good because X number of members had sent private notes
>>>> supporting it, and formalizing a polling process further supports this
>>> kind of behavior.
>>>> 
>>>> As for a secret polling of the members? I find that particularly
>>>> offensive in any setting, much less an Al-Anon meeting.
>>>> 
>>>> Hugs,
>>>> Steve
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> The ASP Instruction page is
>>>> http://asp-afg.org/members/asp-instructions/
>>>> 
>>>> The ASP web site for ASP members is http://www.asp-afg.org/Members/
>>>> 
>>>> For assistance with other ASP issues, contact the List Administrator,
>>>> at  list_administrator at asp-afg.org
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Businessmtg mailing list
>>>> Businessmtg at asp-afg.org
>>>> http://www.asp-afg.org/mailman/listinfo/businessmtg
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> The ASP Instruction page is http://asp-afg.org/members/asp-instructions/
>>> 
>>> The ASP web site for ASP members is http://www.asp-afg.org/Members/
>>> 
>>> For assistance with other ASP issues, contact the List Administrator, at
>>> list_administrator at asp-afg.org
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Businessmtg mailing list
>>> Businessmtg at asp-afg.org
>>> http://www.asp-afg.org/mailman/listinfo/businessmtg
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> The ASP Instruction page is http://asp-afg.org/members/asp-instructions/
>>> 
>>> The ASP web site for ASP members is http://www.asp-afg.org/Members/
>>> 
>>> For assistance with other ASP issues, contact the List Administrator,
>> at  list_administrator at asp-afg.org
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Businessmtg mailing list
>>> Businessmtg at asp-afg.org
>>> http://www.asp-afg.org/mailman/listinfo/businessmtg
>> _______________________________________________
>> The ASP Instruction page is http://asp-afg.org/members/asp-instructions/
>> 
>> The ASP web site for ASP members is http://www.asp-afg.org/Members/
>> 
>> For assistance with other ASP issues, contact the List Administrator, at
>> list_administrator at asp-afg.org
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Businessmtg mailing list
>> Businessmtg at asp-afg.org
>> http://www.asp-afg.org/mailman/listinfo/businessmtg
> _______________________________________________
> The ASP Instruction page is http://asp-afg.org/members/asp-instructions/
> 
> The ASP web site for ASP members is http://www.asp-afg.org/Members/
> 
> For assistance with other ASP issues, contact the List Administrator, at  list_administrator at asp-afg.org
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Businessmtg mailing list
> Businessmtg at asp-afg.org
> http://www.asp-afg.org/mailman/listinfo/businessmtg