[Businessmtg] Process Questions

[Tammy Louise]

Thank you, Steve. I appreciate the information you provided below.
Although my message had been addressed to you specifically (for leadership
clarification), much of my thoughts and questions were intended as group
discussion. Further thoughts for discussion are in pink below.

On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 11:30 PM Steve Rankin <steve at serenitysys.com> wrote:

> Hi Tammy,
>
>
>
> Remember that we follow the KBDM process at ASP.  As a result, we need to
> develop a consensus first, then develop a motion that reflects the
> consensus. Yes, I understand that we require a group conscience. What has
> been difficult for me during these meetings is determining what the final
> outcome has been. A topic is open (I think for a week), then simply closed
> and we move onto another topic. There is no summary provided for what was
> just discussed (what did leadership hear from that discussion?), no
> information on what action will be done, what next steps are, etc... Then
> two months go by and we start in on anther meeting and I don't remember
> what was discussed before and where we are at with things. And as I
> mentioned, I don't recall seeing an agenda for these meetings either.
> Therefore, I feel a little blind in my participation and frankly, like my
> input really doesn't matter. Like we are just checking a box.
>
>
>
> If the BM were to decide that they wanted Mary’s version, that would
> necessitate a revision of Motion #22 which would be a major change to how
> ASP operates, which would then open the door to the major change policy
> requiring many months of discussion.  OTOH, a motion to accept the bylaws
> as I drafted them implies no changes at all to how ASP operates, which
> makes it a simple motion that could be passed this month. In my opinion,
> Mary's suggestions are not a "major" change to how ASP operates. In looking
> at the website, I see the two major duties of the Secretary is to 1) chair
> these business meetings; and 2) record group conscience (motions). In 2020
> and 2021, I count 3 motions put before the BM. So aside from conducting
> these meetings every other month, which requires the Secretary to simply
> keep the agenda moving forward, there really hasn't been much work. This is
> not unlike the Secretary positions I've known and have served in myself. So
> asking this position to write up a summary of each meeting does not seem
> inappropriate, major, or unusual to me at all.
>

Having said that, I understand that adding official Minutes to our process
can take up a significant amount of time (due to the KBDM process). With
KBDM and our electronic format, I believe it will take a week to accomplish
this task (versus 2 minutes in a "normal" meeting) -- and that isn't worth
it for me. I feel as though our time is better spent on other business.

However -- I do still feel strongly that asking the Secretary to introduce
the meetings with an agenda and a brief summary of where we are at with
each subject is appropriate and would be very helpful to participants.

>
>
> The issue before the BM is approving the draft bylaws.  The decision to
> incorporate is a done deal. It would be simple to rubberstamp the drafted
> Bylaws. Yet, I was always asked growing up -- do you want it done fast, or
> do you want it done right? I'm not saying my thoughts or Mary's thoughts
> are "right", of course the group conscience decides that.
>
>
>
> Mary’s issue of using more generic terms is not without a personal
> agenda.  The terms I used “written” and “email” are already extremely
> generic, and don’t need to be changed to allow for some lesser degree of
> documentation. Hmmm...perhaps I'm out of the loop, but I didn't take
> Mary's request as part of any "personal agenda" at all. The recommendations
> she made were quite reasonable and simple in my opinion and would allow ASP
> to continue growing with the times. Who "prints" business items anymore?
> Only old people like myself because I can't see on my tiny device. LOL
>

As I said -- I am okay with not requesting the Secretary to provide Minutes
because of the approval process and timing. I would however, like our
business meetings to be introduced with an agenda and summary of where we
are at with each item AND I would like to see Mary's recommended language
change under the Treasurer's section.

>
>
> Our experience at ASP is that practically nobody reads anything we send
> out. Or they ignore what we sent them.  Or they forget?  This has been a
> perpetual issue in ASP that the SC discusses from time to time.  With the
> exception of the times when I’m dealing with moving something through the
> Business Meeting, or dealing with some actual problem, dealing with members
> that haven’t read what we’ve written, or aren’t following what we’ve
> written occupies by far more time of the List Administrator than anything
> else. Should I mention someone we both know that keeps sending messages to
> the Business Meeting that are addressed to more than just the Business
> Meeting?  Such as yesterday’s note sent to both Mary and the BM, and this
> note sent to me and the BM.  😊
>

I'm sorry that you've had to "deal with" members not following
instructions. I'm afraid that is likely just part of the job. New members
sometimes need a little help -- and if you don't do something on a regular
basis -- even conditioned members make mistakes or don't understand how
things work. It's not like our processes are common or simple, or even make
sense sometimes.  I'm happy that someone else has taken on that task for
*serving* our group and given you a break. I'll admit that I didn't
understand what your comment was there "Should I mention..." until I saw
the rejection from the server. You are right -- I did include more than one
email address in the "TO" section. It seems the tools we use for ASP don't
operate as I'm used to and since I didn't really understand what it meant
when the subject was brought up before, I made the mistake. Now I
understand... What server rejects emails with more than one email address
in the "TO" section? Ours... I will do my best to remember that in the
future.

>
>
>
>
> Keep it Simple.  Which is simpler?
>
>
>
>    1. Let the server maintain the archives for the Business Meeting.
>
> or
>
>    1. Require separate minutes
>       1. Require the Secretary draft minutes
>       2. Require the members of the Business Meeting read the minutes
>       during the Staff Reports
>       3. Discuss corrections and amendments to the draft minutes
>       4. Close the Business Meeting for a week while the members of the
>       Business Meeting vote on accepting the minutes.
>
> Remember, every vote at ASP requires shutting down all discussion during
> the polling period.
>
>    1. Possibly deal with the vote to approve the minutes failing.
>
> Remember, every vote REQUIRES an affirmative majority vote to pass.
> Anyone that doesn’t vote is counted as a NO vote.
>
>
>
> Over the years, I’ve never had a member ask me for the minutes of a
> previous Business Meeting.  Why would I ask the Secretary to create
> separate written minutes for beginners that rarely if ever read them
> anyway?
>


> You might want to read what I posted this evening in response to the
> concerns.
>
>
>
> About Venmo.
>
>
>
> First, there are far more financial institutions than ASP can
> accommodate.  We are using what are probably the two most popular
> worldwide.  Secondly, Venmo is for US residents only; adding Venmo would
> exclude our international members.  Third, by default, Venmo publishes
> every peer-to-peer transaction (excluding the amount), a feature shown by
> researchers to reveal sensitive details about users' lives in some
> situations.  In other words, Venmo has some serious privacy issues which
> not only make it less secure for the member, but seem to contradict our
> Tradition of anonymity.
>

I agree, there are a lot of options when it comes to providing payments
electronically and for those of us over the age of 50, checks and PayPal
seem to work. But what about our younger people? I'm not asking to get rid
of checks or PayPal, I'm simply asking to add another viable avenue for
those of us who no longer use the other two options and for those who never
have. I really don't care if it's Venmo, though that seems most popular
because it's less restricting. I use it all the time -- yes, it publishes
peer-to-peer transactions -- *IF* you allow it to. I for one always click
the button to keep my transactions private. That's just me. Other people
seem to not care that others can see their transactions and profiles. Is it
our job to protect people from themselves? Or can we treat them like adults
and allow it to be their decision on what tool to use and how they use them?

>
>
> OTOH, there is nothing preventing a member from sending a Money Order or
> cash to the PO Box. I will never go through the expense or time it takes
> to purchase a money order (it's just not convenient or practical) and
> sending cash through the mail is foolish. I think we all know that. I'm
> open to ideas from others, and would like to explore this as a group to
> find a solution to this issue. So I'll ask again -- how do items like this
> get on the agenda?
>

Thanks again for your time and service,
Tammy


>
>
> Hugs,
>
> Steve
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Tammy Louise
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 11, 2022 6:57 PM
> *To:* steve at serenitysys.com; businessmtg at asp-afg.org
> *Subject:* Process Questions
>
>
>
> Hi Steve,
>
> I just want to make sure I understand what's happening here at the
> business meeting.
>
>
>
> The topic of bylaws is on the table and you provided a draft copy to
> incorporate ASP. I get that and fully support that. I'm actually surprised
> it isn't already incorporated. Thank you for all the work you put into
> writing those up. I've had to do that a couple of times and know how time
> consuming and sometimes complex it can be. Overall, I think you did a great
> job!
>
>
>
> So here we are having discussion... Most people are giving a thumbs up.
> There have also been some questions and suggestions provided. I further
> clarified the suggestions by asking for some samples. I guess I would like
> clarification for...Now what?
>
>
>
> Typically, at this point in the board meetings I've been in someone would
> make a motion. We'd discuss the motion, maybe get clarification, make
> amendments to the motions based on discussion and then when there is no
> more discussion we'd vote.
>
>
>
> But if I'm remembering correctly. This is all going to be strictly
> discussion for this meeting. Right? This topic will come up on the next
> several agendas before being brought up for a vote... Correct?
>
>
>
> So then I wonder about the subject of Minutes. Because although that is an
> entirely different topic not on the agenda (that I know of -- btw, I don't
> recall seeing the agenda for these meetings -- am I missing something?)
> Perhaps having an agenda would help me understand and stay on track here. I
> don't know. Anyway, I digress... Minutes, although not on the agenda (?) is
> being discussed in relation to the Bylaws. So how is that incorporated into
> the discussion? Will it be on the next agenda?
>
>
>
> For input purposes, I'm in favor of having Minutes vs. a copy of all these
> emails we send back and forth. Falls in line with Keep It Simple and it's
> much easier for beginners to catch up and be informed participants in my
> opinion. I also like Mary's idea of using more generic terms to provide
> flexibility and allow for changes in technology when it comes to the
> treasurer section(s).
>
>
>
> I for one do not write checks anymore and do not have a PayPal account. I
> wrote my last check early last year. Therefore I'm not sure how I will be
> able to contribute to ASP monetarily from here out. I suggested to you
> adding Venmo (I believe owned by PayPal) over a year ago and ended up
> writing checks because I had some at that point. I've ran out now and have
> no intention of getting more. Someone else recently requested/suggested
> Venmo too. How does such a subject get on the agenda for one of these
> meetings?
>
>
>
> Okay, that's all my thoughts for now. I just brain dumped so hope it all
> makes sense.
>
>
>
> Thanks for your time helping me understand.
>
>
>
> Tammy
>