[Businessmtg] FW: Process Questions

[Tammy Louise]

Hi Anne O,
Sorry for the delay in my response. I had a migraine yesterday and I've
been helping my sister (by just hanging out with her) after her fiance
suddenly passed away late last week. I'm happy to summarize what I was
talking about.

First, I apologize if my questions and comments were all over the board. I
was doing a brain dump (as mentioned in my initial email). Some of it was
process questions regarding the business meeting itself and some of it was
business meeting related to the Bylaws. Perhaps I should have split the two
subjects. Either way, I had intended for it to be sent to the whole group.
However, I made a mistake in forgetting that our server can't handle two
email addresses in the TO section, so it appeared that only Steve received
the email and not the group. The other one bounced back to me.

I intended the email to go to the group definitely for the business
purposes, but also the process because I was unsure if the process could be
included in the business or what -- plus, I've always been told if I don't
know something, perhaps others in the group don't know either -- so ask!
That way I'm helping others too. Maybe that's wrong, I don't know. Anyway
-- and not that I'm making an excuse or anything, but I am dyslexic, so
sometimes when I say things (especially in a brain dump) they don't make
the best sense and can be out of order. So I appreciate you asking me to
re-try.

SUMMARY
* Minutes (Business Related) -- Although in my opinion, I don't believe
asking the Secretary to write minutes, especially very simple ones as I've
seen and done myself for years -- We discussed pros and cons of X, X was
moved and seconded, X passed or failed -- I do agree that taking the time
to get them passed during our business meetings (due to the process) is not
a good use of our time.

** Minutes (Process Related) -- In lieu of this, I'm asking for two things:
1) an agenda presented to us at the beginning of each meeting. The last
agenda posted to the website was July 2021. 2) some brief info on where we
are at with each item.

After doing some research on our website, I found a summary of the KBDM
process -- Section VII (4) states: When agreement is reached on all points
of the issue, the Chair will repost the note describing all the agreements
reached on each sub-part of the issue, and note that there appears to be
agreement on the entire issue. This is great for those items in which we
have first discussed them and immediately came into agreement and passed a
motion -- however, I'd like to know if the item has been discussed
previously -- someone suggested including a link to previous discussion --
awesome. Then I can go to the link, find that discussion and read for
myself what was previously discussed. That way I'm not asking the steering
committee to give me their opinion of what was discussed and I'm not
wasting time by asking previously asked questions, etc... After all, I may
not have attended the last meeting, or I simply may have forgotten.

Now I may be out of order for this meeting on the process part because it's
related, yet not related to the Bylaws -- perhaps my suggestions can be
incorporated into the Bylaws? I don't know. If the group thinks it's
unrelated, I'm asking to add it to the next business meeting agenda for
discussion. Which -- I also finally found on the website -- the process of
how to request agenda items. So if this suggestion is rejected as part of
the Bylaws, then I will formally request it in a separate email to the
steering committee.

*** Bylaws, Treasurer's Section (Business Related) -- I would like to see
Mary's recommended language change under the Treasurer's section. I think I
got in trouble for using the word "like" in this sentence, so I apologize.
I still don't really get it, but like I said, I'm dyslexic, so sometimes
things take a while to sink in. Perhaps it was the structure? If I had said
"I would like to see the changes Mary recommended for the Treasurer's
section incorporated into the Bylaws" -- is that better? I'm not being a
smartass here, I'm seriously asking because I don't understand. "I approve
of the Treasurer section changes Mary recommended" I'm trying here. Please
forgive my ignorance.

This was basically it. I had brought up adding another donation option --
but really, I was just asking how to get it on the agenda for another
meeting -- I've figured that out myself now.

Hope this makes better sense.

Thanks for your time,
Tammy


On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 12:22 PM <aohara77 at comcast.net> wrote:

> Hi Tammy,
>
> Thanks for forwarding this.  Color does not appear, can you summarize
> which pieces of this long thread are meant for the discussion?  So much of
> it I imagine is for the group, I just want to be sure I am zeroing on those
> sections you have in mind.  Thanks again for bringing your questions
> forward!
>
> Anne O.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Businessmtg <businessmtg-bounces+aohara77=comcast.net at asp-afg.org>
> On Behalf Of Tammy Louise
> Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2022 11:50 AM
> To: aohara77 at comcast.net
> Cc: ASP Business <businessmtg at asp-afg.org>
> Subject: Re: [Businessmtg] Process Questions
>
> Thank you, Steve. I appreciate the information you provided below.
> Although my message had been addressed to you specifically (for leadership
> clarification), much of my thoughts and questions were intended as group
> discussion. Further thoughts for discussion are in pink below.
>
> On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 11:30 PM Steve Rankin <steve at serenitysys.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Tammy,
> >
> >
> >
> > Remember that we follow the KBDM process at ASP.  As a result, we need
> > to develop a consensus first, then develop a motion that reflects the
> > consensus. Yes, I understand that we require a group conscience. What
> > has been difficult for me during these meetings is determining what
> > the final outcome has been. A topic is open (I think for a week), then
> > simply closed and we move onto another topic. There is no summary
> > provided for what was just discussed (what did leadership hear from
> > that discussion?), no information on what action will be done, what
> > next steps are, etc... Then two months go by and we start in on anther
> > meeting and I don't remember what was discussed before and where we
> > are at with things. And as I mentioned, I don't recall seeing an agenda
> for these meetings either.
> > Therefore, I feel a little blind in my participation and frankly, like
> > my input really doesn't matter. Like we are just checking a box.
> >
> >
> >
> > If the BM were to decide that they wanted Mary’s version, that would
> > necessitate a revision of Motion #22 which would be a major change to
> > how ASP operates, which would then open the door to the major change
> > policy requiring many months of discussion.  OTOH, a motion to accept
> > the bylaws as I drafted them implies no changes at all to how ASP
> > operates, which makes it a simple motion that could be passed this
> > month. In my opinion, Mary's suggestions are not a "major" change to
> > how ASP operates. In looking at the website, I see the two major
> > duties of the Secretary is to 1) chair these business meetings; and 2)
> > record group conscience (motions). In 2020 and 2021, I count 3 motions
> > put before the BM. So aside from conducting these meetings every other
> > month, which requires the Secretary to simply keep the agenda moving
> > forward, there really hasn't been much work. This is not unlike the
> > Secretary positions I've known and have served in myself. So asking
> > this position to write up a summary of each meeting does not seem
> inappropriate, major, or unusual to me at all.
> >
>
> Having said that, I understand that adding official Minutes to our process
> can take up a significant amount of time (due to the KBDM process). With
> KBDM and our electronic format, I believe it will take a week to accomplish
> this task (versus 2 minutes in a "normal" meeting) -- and that isn't worth
> it for me. I feel as though our time is better spent on other business.
>
> However -- I do still feel strongly that asking the Secretary to introduce
> the meetings with an agenda and a brief summary of where we are at with
> each subject is appropriate and would be very helpful to participants.
>
> >
> >
> > The issue before the BM is approving the draft bylaws.  The decision
> > to incorporate is a done deal. It would be simple to rubberstamp the
> > drafted Bylaws. Yet, I was always asked growing up -- do you want it
> > done fast, or do you want it done right? I'm not saying my thoughts or
> > Mary's thoughts are "right", of course the group conscience decides that.
> >
> >
> >
> > Mary’s issue of using more generic terms is not without a personal
> > agenda.  The terms I used “written” and “email” are already extremely
> > generic, and don’t need to be changed to allow for some lesser degree
> > of documentation. Hmmm...perhaps I'm out of the loop, but I didn't
> > take Mary's request as part of any "personal agenda" at all. The
> > recommendations she made were quite reasonable and simple in my
> > opinion and would allow ASP to continue growing with the times. Who
> "prints" business items anymore?
> > Only old people like myself because I can't see on my tiny device. LOL
> >
>
> As I said -- I am okay with not requesting the Secretary to provide
> Minutes because of the approval process and timing. I would however, like
> our business meetings to be introduced with an agenda and summary of where
> we are at with each item AND I would like to see Mary's recommended
> language change under the Treasurer's section.
>
> >
> >
> > Our experience at ASP is that practically nobody reads anything we
> > send out. Or they ignore what we sent them.  Or they forget?  This has
> > been a perpetual issue in ASP that the SC discusses from time to time.
> > With the exception of the times when I’m dealing with moving something
> > through the Business Meeting, or dealing with some actual problem,
> > dealing with members that haven’t read what we’ve written, or aren’t
> > following what we’ve written occupies by far more time of the List
> > Administrator than anything else. Should I mention someone we both
> > know that keeps sending messages to the Business Meeting that are
> > addressed to more than just the Business Meeting?  Such as yesterday’s
> > note sent to both Mary and the BM, and this note sent to me and the
> > BM.  😊
> >
>
> I'm sorry that you've had to "deal with" members not following
> instructions. I'm afraid that is likely just part of the job. New members
> sometimes need a little help -- and if you don't do something on a regular
> basis -- even conditioned members make mistakes or don't understand how
> things work. It's not like our processes are common or simple, or even make
> sense sometimes.  I'm happy that someone else has taken on that task for
> *serving* our group and given you a break. I'll admit that I didn't
> understand what your comment was there "Should I mention..." until I saw
> the rejection from the server. You are right -- I did include more than one
> email address in the "TO" section. It seems the tools we use for ASP don't
> operate as I'm used to and since I didn't really understand what it meant
> when the subject was brought up before, I made the mistake. Now I
> understand... What server rejects emails with more than one email address
> in the "TO" section? Ours... I will do my best to remember that in the
> future.
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Keep it Simple.  Which is simpler?
> >
> >
> >
> >    1. Let the server maintain the archives for the Business Meeting.
> >
> > or
> >
> >    1. Require separate minutes
> >       1. Require the Secretary draft minutes
> >       2. Require the members of the Business Meeting read the minutes
> >       during the Staff Reports
> >       3. Discuss corrections and amendments to the draft minutes
> >       4. Close the Business Meeting for a week while the members of the
> >       Business Meeting vote on accepting the minutes.
> >
> > Remember, every vote at ASP requires shutting down all discussion
> > during the polling period.
> >
> >    1. Possibly deal with the vote to approve the minutes failing.
> >
> > Remember, every vote REQUIRES an affirmative majority vote to pass.
> > Anyone that doesn’t vote is counted as a NO vote.
> >
> >
> >
> > Over the years, I’ve never had a member ask me for the minutes of a
> > previous Business Meeting.  Why would I ask the Secretary to create
> > separate written minutes for beginners that rarely if ever read them
> > anyway?
> >
>
>
> > You might want to read what I posted this evening in response to the
> > concerns.
> >
> >
> >
> > About Venmo.
> >
> >
> >
> > First, there are far more financial institutions than ASP can
> > accommodate.  We are using what are probably the two most popular
> > worldwide.  Secondly, Venmo is for US residents only; adding Venmo
> > would exclude our international members.  Third, by default, Venmo
> > publishes every peer-to-peer transaction (excluding the amount), a
> > feature shown by researchers to reveal sensitive details about users'
> > lives in some situations.  In other words, Venmo has some serious
> > privacy issues which not only make it less secure for the member, but
> > seem to contradict our Tradition of anonymity.
> >
>
> I agree, there are a lot of options when it comes to providing payments
> electronically and for those of us over the age of 50, checks and PayPal
> seem to work. But what about our younger people? I'm not asking to get rid
> of checks or PayPal, I'm simply asking to add another viable avenue for
> those of us who no longer use the other two options and for those who never
> have. I really don't care if it's Venmo, though that seems most popular
> because it's less restricting. I use it all the time -- yes, it publishes
> peer-to-peer transactions -- *IF* you allow it to. I for one always click
> the button to keep my transactions private. That's just me. Other people
> seem to not care that others can see their transactions and profiles. Is it
> our job to protect people from themselves? Or can we treat them like adults
> and allow it to be their decision on what tool to use and how they use them?
>
> >
> >
> > OTOH, there is nothing preventing a member from sending a Money Order
> > or cash to the PO Box. I will never go through the expense or time it
> > takes to purchase a money order (it's just not convenient or
> > practical) and sending cash through the mail is foolish. I think we
> > all know that. I'm open to ideas from others, and would like to
> > explore this as a group to find a solution to this issue. So I'll ask
> > again -- how do items like this get on the agenda?
> >
>
> Thanks again for your time and service,
> Tammy
>
>
> >
> >
> > Hugs,
> >
> > Steve
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > *From:* Tammy Louise
> > *Sent:* Tuesday, January 11, 2022 6:57 PM
> > *To:* steve at serenitysys.com; businessmtg at asp-afg.org
> > *Subject:* Process Questions
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Steve,
> >
> > I just want to make sure I understand what's happening here at the
> > business meeting.
> >
> >
> >
> > The topic of bylaws is on the table and you provided a draft copy to
> > incorporate ASP. I get that and fully support that. I'm actually
> > surprised it isn't already incorporated. Thank you for all the work
> > you put into writing those up. I've had to do that a couple of times
> > and know how time consuming and sometimes complex it can be. Overall,
> > I think you did a great job!
> >
> >
> >
> > So here we are having discussion... Most people are giving a thumbs up.
> > There have also been some questions and suggestions provided. I
> > further clarified the suggestions by asking for some samples. I guess
> > I would like clarification for...Now what?
> >
> >
> >
> > Typically, at this point in the board meetings I've been in someone
> > would make a motion. We'd discuss the motion, maybe get clarification,
> > make amendments to the motions based on discussion and then when there
> > is no more discussion we'd vote.
> >
> >
> >
> > But if I'm remembering correctly. This is all going to be strictly
> > discussion for this meeting. Right? This topic will come up on the
> > next several agendas before being brought up for a vote... Correct?
> >
> >
> >
> > So then I wonder about the subject of Minutes. Because although that
> > is an entirely different topic not on the agenda (that I know of --
> > btw, I don't recall seeing the agenda for these meetings -- am I
> > missing something?) Perhaps having an agenda would help me understand
> > and stay on track here. I don't know. Anyway, I digress... Minutes,
> > although not on the agenda (?) is being discussed in relation to the
> > Bylaws. So how is that incorporated into the discussion? Will it be on
> the next agenda?
> >
> >
> >
> > For input purposes, I'm in favor of having Minutes vs. a copy of all
> > these emails we send back and forth. Falls in line with Keep It Simple
> > and it's much easier for beginners to catch up and be informed
> > participants in my opinion. I also like Mary's idea of using more
> > generic terms to provide flexibility and allow for changes in
> > technology when it comes to the treasurer section(s).
> >
> >
> >
> > I for one do not write checks anymore and do not have a PayPal
> > account. I wrote my last check early last year. Therefore I'm not sure
> > how I will be able to contribute to ASP monetarily from here out. I
> > suggested to you adding Venmo (I believe owned by PayPal) over a year
> > ago and ended up writing checks because I had some at that point. I've
> > ran out now and have no intention of getting more. Someone else
> > recently requested/suggested Venmo too. How does such a subject get on
> > the agenda for one of these meetings?
> >
> >
> >
> > Okay, that's all my thoughts for now. I just brain dumped so hope it
> > all makes sense.
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks for your time helping me understand.
> >
> >
> >
> > Tammy
> >
> ____________________________
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> The ASP web site with all kinds of info for ASP members is
> http://asp-afg.org/members/ For assistance with other ASP issues, contact
> Steve the Founder of ASP, at steve at serenitysys.com
>
>
> ____________________________
> To Unsubscribe, go to: http://www.asp-afg.org/mailman/listinfo/asp
> The ASP web site with all kinds of info for ASP members is
> http://asp-afg.org/members/
> For assistance with other ASP issues, contact Steve the Founder of ASP, at
> steve at serenitysys.com
>