[Businessmtg] Anonymity and archives

Mon Jan 13 11:21:08 PST 2025

Hi everyone. After reading through these emails again, I’m wondering if the LA couldn’t save emails that may need attention in the future? For example, when I rejoined ASP I saved the emails from the person that greeted me. That way if I ever need it I can go back to it. If there’s a problematic email and someone forwards it to the LA or the LA needs it for future reference, couldn’t they archive it in their own email? Or, if someone is bringing something to their attention I’m sure they would be able to forward it.

If figuring out how to save or archive emails in your own personal email is too much work for someone, I doubt they would be comfortable with the responsibilities of the LA anyway. Risking anonymity and privacy of ASP members so someone’s service work isn’t too much is not a fair reason, in my opinion.

Anna

Sent from [Proton Mail](https://proton.me/mail/home) for iOS

On Mon, Jan 13, 2025 at 8:02 AM, Lynne < [lynne at asp-afg.org](mailto:On Mon, Jan 13, 2025 at 8:02 AM, Lynne <<a href=)> wrote:

> Hi Mary,
>
> Are you suggesting that when someone becomes the list administrator, they would be required to start making a personal archive on their own email server in order to allow them to address issues that arise at ASP?
>
> I understand what you’re saying. And I know that technically this is possible for many of us with the email clients we use. What I have a concern about is that this would be yet another requirement being put on the list administrator. What if the person who volunteers for this position can’t easily do this for one reason or another?
>
> I will not be the list administrator when the outcome of any potential motion about the archives has to be implemented. So I won’t have to deal with the repercussions. But I feel it is important to fully understand what might be asked of a future list administrator.
>
> Hugs,
> Lynne
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Jan 12, 2025, at 12:02 PM, Mary Abbott <maryaonlinealanon at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> 
>>>
>>> Hi Lynn and ASP Business Members
>> Seems things are always more complicated than they initially appear, Lynn. I can see scenarios when a current email is just the tip of the iceberg and the list administrator would want to visit past emails.
>>
>> However, that seems like a separate technology issue from what I and others see as the problem of anonymity violations. Lynn, your service is so much appreciated and I think we all want you to have the tools you need to keep ASP a safe place to share. My hope is that we can find a way to do that without archiving.
>>
>> I believe the solution of the list administrator needing to look a past emails may be as simple as using another email provider. For example, with my Gmail account, when I read ASP emails they are then archived into my Gmail account. Anytime I want to do a person search or topic search, all I have to do is hit All Mail on my ASP Gmail email account. That violates no one’s anonymity. Those emails were willing and knowingly sent to me.
>>
>> I think it is important to remember that the emails in the archive are not addressed to the archive. Our emails are addressed to the current ASP membership list managed by ASP and distributed to the membership by way of the ASP server. When our recovery emails that include our identifying email addresses are sent to a place where they were not addressed to go (ASP archive) this introduces issues of permission, privacy, and anonymity.
>>
>> When emails are saved to the archive, personal recovery information and contact information is placed in a space where the writer has not given permission, nor, in most cases, even knows those emails are being placed and kept. Even when an individual knows that their emails are being saved in archive and wants them removed for privacy and anonymity purposes, that is not possible. This is a violation of an individual’s ability to give permission about who is privy to their personal recovery, and to exercise the right to privacy and anonymity.
>>
>> The emails and contact information of individuals who are no longer with ASP were only written to the individuals who were members at the time when they were members. I have no right to read personal identifiable (with email address) recovery emails of past ASP members that were not sent to me directly even if they are available to me in the archive. Reading person-identifiable recovery emails that were not addressed to me denies the persons who wrote those emails the permission to decide who reads about their personal recovery. Their anonymity and privacy are violated.
>>
>> ASP should not be allowed to keep identifiable recovery emails in an archive without expressed permission from the individuals who wrote those emails. We don’t have consent procedures in place. We don’t even tell our members that their identifiable shares are being archived.
>>
>> Finally, ASP certainly doesn’t have the right to keep in archive the identifiable emails of individuals who have requested to have their emails removed. We have no system in place for that either. It is either all emails are archived or no emails are archived. It is a choice of a button click of the ASP group to keep a copy of shares in archives.in my humble opinion, that archive button should be unclicked.
>>
>> Mary A
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Jan 11, 2025, at 8:14 PM, Lynne <lynne at asp-afg.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Mary,
>>>
>>> I have to disagree that having one share that someone sent that someone else finds problematic is enough for a list administrator to effectively handle situations that arise.
>>>
>>> The recent history (i.e 2-3 months) of shares is just as important and necessary for handling those situations. That has at least been my experience as list administrator.
>>>
>>> Hugs,
>>> Lynne
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>>> On Jan 10, 2025, at 10:15 PM, Mary Abbott <maryaonlinealanon at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> I’m opposed to keeping archives shares.
>>>>
>>>> The concept of anonymity is repeatedly emphasized in every aspect of Al-Anon. Those archives break the anonymity of people who shared back in 2009 and every other year since. Most of those people who shared are no longer around to give their permission to have their shares used for any purpose or to be contacted for any reason. But we share their contact information when we archive their shares. Even if someone who shared in 2010 decided that they no longer wanted their shares in the archive, they would be told that their shares cannot be deleted. That doesn’t sound like Al-Anon anonymity, nor Al-Anon principles to me when we tell someone that their Al-Anon anonymity cannot be protected because it is huge data dump of shares for which keep are all of them or none of them.
>>>>
>>>> If I want to save a share, I can save it on my email server. If my email server is not compatible to read or save ASP shares, I can opt to use an email server that does, if I want to be a member of ASP.
>>>>
>>>> If someone has a problem with a share’s content and takes that concern to the list administrator, the administrator can get a copy of the share from the person who felt the share was inappropriate. Keeping shares archived is not required for the list administrator to review a potentially inappropriate share.
>>>>
>>>> ESH shared at meeting is not CAL. Keeping meetings archived so that members can go look up a topic does not seem appropriate to me. We have members who share more mess than message. That is their right to do so but it is not the model we want to promote to newcomers or anyone else for that matter who are looking for help them with their recovery. That is what CAL is for. The importance of using CAL as the model for recovery is repeatedly mentioned throughout Al-Anon literature. CAL keeps the focus us, not the mess that surrounds us and CAL is a community endeavor that keeps the authors’ identity private. Share are an important part of recovery to but they are not meant to be a permanent record to be used like CAL
>>>>
>>>> Finally (yes, my final point), I love data and the data shared with us is unidentified collapsed data. But the list administrator does not have specific written permission from anyone on whom these individual data are collected. My profession was collecting data. I was not in the healthcare field but I was still bound to abide by US HIPPA regulations for everyone just in case there were any individuals whose health care issues might even remotely tangentially be associated with our studies. And there always were. We have people regularly share about seeing mental healthcare professionals. That is healthcare information. On the Al-Anon WSO website, in regards to their chat rooms, it is no coincidence that anonymity and safeguards to insure HIPPA compliance occur in the same paragraph. No permanent record is allowed of chats that take place on the WSO website. Collecting and keeping identifiable information that contains any kind of health care information without specific written permission can be construed to be a HIPPA violation. It doesn’t matter if it is collapsed data having nothing to do with content of the share. It is principle of violating anonymity that is the basis for US HIPPA regulations and Al-Anon recovery.
>>>>
>>>> Anonymity is the spiritual foundation of our Al-Anon recovery. Our archives violate the spirit and directive of that tradition.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for reading this long share.
>>>>
>>>> Mary A.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> ____________________________
>>>> To Unsubscribe, go to: http://www.asp-afg.org/mailman/listinfo/asp
>>>> The ASP web site with all kinds of info for ASP members is http://asp-afg.org/members/
>>>> For assistance with other ASP issues, contact Lynne, the List Administrator of ASP, at lynne at asp-afg.org
>>>
>>> ____________________________
>>> To Unsubscribe, go to: http://www.asp-afg.org/mailman/listinfo/asp
>>> The ASP web site with all kinds of info for ASP members is http://asp-afg.org/members/
>>> For assistance with other ASP issues, contact Lynne, the List Administrator of ASP, at lynne at asp-afg.org
>>
>> ____________________________
>> To Unsubscribe, go to: http://www.asp-afg.org/mailman/listinfo/asp
>> The ASP web site with all kinds of info for ASP members is http://asp-afg.org/members/
>> For assistance with other ASP issues, contact Lynne, the List Administrator of ASP, at lynne at asp-afg.org
>
> ____________________________
> To Unsubscribe, go to: http://www.asp-afg.org/mailman/listinfo/asp
> The ASP web site with all kinds of info for ASP members is http://asp-afg.org/members/
> For assistance with other ASP issues, contact Lynne, the List Administrator of ASP, at lynne at asp-afg.org