[Businessmtg] Show Of Hands

Tue Sep 20 17:18:07 PDT 2016

Eh, I have to say that Laura's statement is unexpected to me.
I do not know you Laura, but I have to say that in messages I did not see criticism directed to you.  I thought that all this deliberation of the show of the hands is to establish how to lead the productive meeting so that chairperson (Laura) can get appropriate feedback. Not a single message did sound to me like criticism of you. I thought that you started the subject because before the previous voting the discussion was non-existent. 

I have to repeat that I am new, but I had meetings and collaborations via the internet, and I have to agree with Jane, when meetings are conducted via emails it is hard to judge when everyone has seen them. So either one needs to leave loads of time and just wait till everyone involved gave the feedback or set the deadline as Sandie suggested. 

If you decide to go to the polls, may I suggest to add a possibility for people to write in their option? Polls can be limited in their choices, causing some excellent idea to be lost if only polls are used. 

I also would like to add that I find the idea of dividing meeting into two phases intriguing, it seems neat. However, I do not see how we can apply it. The trouble that I see is that today many people are mixing facts and opinions. This makes harder for us to know what is opinion, and what is fact. 
So if you decide to go that way, who will police what fact is and what opinion is? Moreover, how will you make sure that such policing does not turn into a dictatorship of the views of that person?
We are not talking about math or physics here where such stuff is clear and facts are easily proved to be facts.  In everyday life division between facts and opinion is often blurred, and depends heavily on the point of view of the person who gives them. So in this case, I would prefer to go with that Al-Anon slogan when someone's shares: Take what you like and leave the rest. 

Lexa

> On Sep 20, 2016, at 16:07, List Administrator <list_administrator at asp-afg.org> wrote:
> 
> Laura, you are doing a excellent job. You have my full support. Please do not step down. 
> 
> Hugs
> 
> Sandie
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
>> On Sep 20, 2016, at 5:30 PM, Laura M <lauram at asp-afg.org> wrote:
>> 
>> If the rest of the business meeting is of Steve's opinion that I am doing a
>> poor job, I will gladly step down immediately.
>> 
>> Given that I have received no information from anyone on the steering
>> committee about how these business meetings run...and I am running them as
>> I have seen the business meetings run here before.
>> 
>> Since obviously there are major objections to how I am doing my job, I will
>> offer my resignation because that seems to be the only way Steve will be
>> satisfied.
>> 
>> Laura
>> 
>>> On Tuesday, September 20, 2016, Steve Rankin <steve at serenitysys.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I agree with Jerry's assessment of "when" to have a show of hands.
>>> 
>>> The problem is that our current KBDM process does not separate the
>>> FACT/INFORMATION phase of the meeting from the OPINION/DELIBERATION phase.
>>> This is clearly seen in the current meeting where the vast majority of
>>> posts
>>> have been short quips of opinion, and very little fact & information.
>>> 
>>> We need to separate these phases of the meeting before moving on to
>>> discussing a show of hands type of thing.
>>> 
>>> Hugs,
>>> Steve
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Businessmtg
>>> [mailto:businessmtg-bounces+steve <javascript:;>=
>>> serenitysys.com at asp-afg.org <javascript:;>] On Behalf Of
>>> Gerald Hunter
>>> Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 2:28 PM
>>> To: Steve - SC
>>> Cc: ASP Business
>>> Subject: Re: [Businessmtg] Show Of Hands
>>> 
>>> Hmmmm
>>> 
>>> KBDM.
>>> A general topic discussion is raised from which a consensus on a defined
>>> topic is "detected". A motion is then written which fits that general
>>> agreement. Full research and information seeking takes place regarding the
>>> motion. Fully informed participants then discuss the motion until all input
>>> is heard. Then a vote is taken with a goal of 100% agreement.
>>> 
>>> My question is this: at what point is this "show of hands" taken?
>>> 
>>> I suggest the only spot would be before the motion is written. [As in "How
>>> many think we should write a motion on this subject?" Anything after that
>>> equates to a vote on the topic without full discussion no matter what it's
>>> called.
>>> 
>>> I'm in favor of more clarity on what we're being asked to raise our hands
>>> to.
>>> 
>>> Jerry
>>> - from the Hopper woods
>>> -
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Laura M <lauram at asp-afg.org <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>>> Hi Everyone,
>>>> 
>>>> I wanted to give a little background of why this item is on the agenda.
>>>> 
>>>> ASP works by KBDM (Knowledge Based Decision Making). We don't use
>>>> Roberts Rules unless absolutely a last ditch, as ASP wants to bring
>>>> people to consensus before taking a vote on anything.
>>>> 
>>>> In a face to face meeting, the chairperson would be able to gauge where
>>>> people are by looking at nodding heads, as well as listening to the
>>> shares.
>>>> 
>>>> The problem at ASP is that the chairperson doesn't have the ability to
>>>> gauge where people are unless they speak up.
>>>> 
>>>> Here is an example:
>>>> An issue comes up in the business meeting and you are thinking that it
>>>> is not a good idea and you share that position. You read all the
>>>> shares, and realize that people have really good points, and change
>>>> your mind, and wait for the vote.
>>>> 
>>>> At this point, the chairperson has no indication that you have switched
>>>> your viewpoint, and would still consider you as a person who is not in
>>>> favor.
>>>> 
>>>> Another example:
>>>> You really don't have an opinion on an issue, and wait to hear the sides.
>>>> You read everything and make up your mind, but don't share it with the
>>>> group.
>>>> 
>>>> At this point the chairperson has no indication of where you stand on
>>>> the issue.
>>>> 
>>>> What this all boils down to is that the chairperson needs a mechanism
>>>> to determine how close the business meeting is to consensus on an
>>>> issue. Since we can't do a physical show of hands, I am suggesting that
>>>> we require a straw poll (or more than one) to determine if consensus
>>>> has been reached *before *we entertain any motions that get voted on.
>>>> 
>>>> This will protect the voices of the minority, as well as ensure that
>>>> everyone is heard.
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks for letting me bring this before the business meeting.
>>>> 
>>>> Laura M
>>>> Secretary
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> 
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>> _______________________________________________
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>> 
>> The ASP web site for ASP members is http://www.asp-afg.org/Members/
>> 
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>> 
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> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> 
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> 
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