[Businessmtg] Show Of Hands

Wed Sep 21 05:34:18 PDT 2016

I have to tell you all I am so confused by all of this...
I too like Sandy wanted to participate because it was service and way for
me to grow in my program. I will sit back and just wait and try to figure
all of this out...
Thank you
Hugs,
Heidi

On Wednesday, September 21, 2016, Sandy Home <graves at eastlink.ca> wrote:

> Hi ASPers:
> I know we are supposed to put principles above personalities.  I decided
> to participate in this business meeting because, just like in my F2F
> meeting, I believe in service.  I also really wanted to have input to the
> discussion about the over whelming amount of email for this group which has
> proven to be mostly helpful for me.....like a meeting in my pocket.
>
> I have to say, though, that I quite challenged by this discussion...the
> length of the emails....and the "tone" of the discussion.  It feels like
> there must already be a bylaw or tradition somewhere that deals with this.
> Email is different from face to face.  It is hard to detect tone or lack
> thereof.  A big part of me wants to withdraw from this discussion and in
> fact from the group because of it.
>
> With all respect, can we move on from this topic or table it? I have no
> idea how we are going to get on with this meeting if we can't reach
> agreement of whether to have a show of hands.
>
> With love and, in truth, a big does of frustration,
> Sandy G
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> > On Sep 21, 2016, at 4:52 AM, Steve Rankin <steve at serenitysys.com
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >
> > Sandie,
> >
> > I've also been to Assemblies in many Areas. Some issues were decided
> quickly
> > by a show of hands. Some issues were decided by a formal vote with GR's
> > standing for/against/abstain on the issue. And some issues were decided
> by
> > secret ballot. Elections were always by secret ballot. Secret balloting
> is
> > done to protect the identity of who voted for what/whom. Once the ballots
> > are in, the tally is never a secret.
> >
> > However, in every case the results of every "show of
> > hands"/vote/ballot/secret ballot was known to everyone present.
> >
> > The Chair has said that only she and the Webmaster will be privy to the
> > results (tally) of a "show of hands" poll. I have a real problem with
> that
> > kind of secrecy.
> >
> > Another point that bothers me with the Agenda Item "Requiring a show of
> > hands poll before a motion is accepted in the business meeting (voting
> > required)".
> >
> > For 20 years we have tried to keep the guidelines and procedures as
> simple
> > as possible. OK, so some of them aren't so simple - that's typical in
> > Al-Anon. We've also tried to allow a degree of flexibility in how most
> > things are done. While we definitely have procedures and policies in
> place
> > and we expect our trusted servants to abide by them, we've never found it
> > necessary to use language like "must" or "required". After all, if the
> > trusted servant is truly trusted we don't need to use that kind of
> language.
> > Likewise, if the trusted servant is truly interested in serving, then
> they
> > will strive to follow our directions as we have written them, without
> > alterations.
> >
> > Note also how the Chair's suggestion not only requires a poll before a
> > motion is accepted, the members of the Business Meeting are REQUIRED to
> vote
> > in the poll. When did we start requiring members to vote? And if we are
> > going to require them to vote, what is the penalty for not voting? What
> > comes to mind is either outing them for not voting or banning them from
> > voting on the motion, or maybe even banning them from the next meeting?
> > Yeah, I'm sort of joking, but only sort of. If you are going to require
> that
> > members do something, then there must be some kind of consequences for
> > non-compliance. Of course, the Concept 12 forbids punitive action so I'm
> at
> > a loss about how to interpret this.
> >
> > Even the Steps are "suggested", not required.
> >
> > Hugs,
> > Steve
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Businessmtg
> > [mailto:businessmtg-bounces+steve <javascript:;>=
> serenitysys.com at asp-afg.org <javascript:;>] On Behalf Of
> > List Administrator
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 7:13 PM
> > To: Steve - SC
> > Cc: ASP Business
> > Subject: Re: [Businessmtg] Show Of Hands
> >
> > Secret polls are held all of the time in Al-Anon. I doubt that I have
> ever
> > been to a election in Al-Anon where balloting was not done secretly. In
> > every Assembly  I have attended in three different areas all balloting
> was
> > done secretly.
> >
> > Hugs
> > Sandie
> >
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> >> On Sep 20, 2016, at 8:56 PM, Steve Rankin <steve at serenitysys.com
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi folks,
> >>
> >> Some thoughts on the show of hands issue, specifically.
> >>
> >> I'll describe the way I did it for 10 years.
> >>
> >> 1. We know who is in the Business Meeting. We send out a list of
> >> everyone in the BM at the start of the meeting, so making a list of
> >> who's here is a done deal.
> >>
> >> 2. As members of the BM share on the issue, I'd have at least a clue
> >> about how they felt on the issue. Put a "+" next to the name of
> >> someone for and issue, a "-" next to the name of someone against the
> >> issue.  If/when someone changes their tune, I change the mark next to
> > their name.
> >>
> >> 3. Anyone that hasn't shared during the meeting is obvious because
> >> there is no mark next to their name.
> >>
> >> 4. Ask for members that have not spoken, or who have changed their
> >> minds on the issue to speak up. So simple and so efficient. No need to
> >> craft the wording of a poll, no need to post a poll on the website, no
> >> need to put the meeting on hold while members go to the poll, no need to
> > tally, etc.
> >>
> >> 5. What if someone doesn't speak up, or changes their mind later?
> >> Obviously, I have no clue what the silent folks are thinking, but
> >> usually I can tell if there's a swing in thinking when someone bring up
> a
> > new facet to the issue.
> >> Frankly, this is not a problem IF the consensus building is done well.
> >> See, an Al-Anon consensus is usually unanimous or very nearly so. If
> >> we haven't reached that SUBSTANTIAL UNANIMITY, then we aren't done
> >> with the consensus building.
> >>
> >> 6. As the meeting went on, I'd also write notes about the suggestions.
> >> As I started to think we were getting close to a consensus, I'd
> >> assemble those notes into a list of points that needed to be part of a
> >> motion that represented the consensus.
> >>
> >> 7. If I think we have reached a consensus on Part A of an issue, but
> >> not Part B, then I'd post a note saying I think we have a consensus on
> >> Part A, so let's just talk about Part B. Maybe A & B can be separated,
> >> but I'm loath to do that as sometimes we discover something during the
> >> discussion of Part B that changes what we thought about Part A.
> >>
> >> 8. Now, when we get to the point where I think we have a consensus on
> >> the issue, I post a message that lists ALL of the points that are part
> >> of the consensus, and ask for a motion that covers ALL of those
> >> points. If the motion leaves out any points, or is somehow contrary to
> >> what I believe is the consensus, then that motion is null and void and I
> > ask for a new motion.
> >>
> >>
> >> 9. Then we create the poll and vote.
> >>
> >> 10. During the entire discussion and deliberation, as the Chair it is
> >> important I remain as neutral as possible. My job as the Chair is to
> >> guide the group to a consensus that represents the group. It is not my
> >> job to influence the group to take a preferred course of action.
> >>
> >> So, that's the way I did it. Frankly, I think it worked quite well and
> >> I don't see any good reason to formalize polling the members. For one
> >> thing, it creates a situation where meaningful discussions can easily
> >> be short-circuited in favor of "efficiency" - or to further an agenda.
> >> Also, I've heard way too much side talk in the recent months about how
> >> such'n'such is good because X number of members had sent private notes
> >> supporting it, and formalizing a polling process further supports this
> > kind of behavior.
> >>
> >> As for a secret polling of the members? I find that particularly
> >> offensive in any setting, much less an Al-Anon meeting.
> >>
> >> Hugs,
> >> Steve
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> The ASP Instruction page is
> >> http://asp-afg.org/members/asp-instructions/
> >>
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> >>
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> >>
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> >
> >
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>
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